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Mechanisms Sharing new (and old) mechanisms

Discussion in 'Level Creation Help' started by meko, Sep 17, 2016.

  1. cpw

    cpw Retired Moderator

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    Now that you have explained it in details, I'm starting to realize the importance of this accidental discovery......:D
     
  2. TR O

    TR O Well-Known Member

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    @cpw Nice! It's a new cool effect.
    @nGord Not quite sure about the explanation. Because there're some words combinations I don't understand. (my english not good enough orz)eg. still map down?

    But I guess it's not that complicated.
    It is actually the same condition as "Ghost Bot".


    The bot would stop only he reaches the end point. The game determine whether he reaches the end point by his feet. If his feet touches the particular block you tapped, the bot stops. In @cpw 's Push glide, the game cannot determine the place B's feet is on so the bot never finish walking forward. Somehow the movable object is not in the list of detectable objects.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  3. nGord

    nGord Standby Administrator, Retired Moderator Staff Member

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    @TR O - Yes and no. Yes, I agree that the game determines whether B reaches the end ("destination") point by his feet touching a particular block. No, I don't think that B keeps moving in this case because the game cannot determine which block B is on, but rather that he hasn't reached the block(s) first calculated by his autopilot routine as acceptable end points.

    One of my strong beliefs for a while now is that B's autopilot routine is calculated immediately after a spot is tapped. First the game determines if B can get to that spot. If not, then a red X appears. If yes, then a bubble appears. Then the autopilot routine is calculated, i.e. how many steps forward, then left/right, etc. From @richardfu_ we know that if B changes planes during his trek to the destination block, he will continue his autopilot routine in the new plane.

    What we learned here is that the last ("verification") step is likely validated by another calculation - as you also say - to verify if B is on the correct final destination block. If not, I suspect that he will repeat the direction of his last step, and then the game will repeat the "verification," etc.

    My assertion is that the autopilot routine also has to make a determination of which is the destination block. That is to say that this has to be done right at the beginning before B starts walking and not at the "verification" stage (as I had previously thought from the Climbing exploit).

    Furthermore, if the destination block is in fact assigned during the autopilot routine calculation, then all acceptable blocks in that vertical space (column in 3D) would have to be deemed acceptable for the Climbing exploit to work. This is the profound part!

    Did I do a better job explaining this time?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  4. nGord

    nGord Standby Administrator, Retired Moderator Staff Member

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    @TR O - Although... Your theory could be plausible too and then the profound part in my theory would not exist (which I would feel more comfortable with).

    The way I see your theory working is that the "verification" step may require the block that B is on to be stationary (i.e. in order to determine its location and then be able to do its verification calculation). When you wrote: "Somehow the movable object is not in the list of detectable objects" - I think it is detectable, just that it's location is not determinable (because it is still in motion). No matter though, as it is still the same result.

    If this is the case, then I can go back to my earlier assumption that the autopilot routine only calculates the path required, which is simpler and more likely.

    P.S. I'm not familiar with "Ghost Bot" and I couldn't find reference anywhere else on the site. May you please share a link?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  5. Frenzies

    Frenzies Administrator Staff Member

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    He's probably talking about the hover trick... you know that, right?

    Anyway, my theory is that B just moves according to the directions (ex. 3 blocks forward, 5 blocks to the right, etc.), and since he does not actually move from the block (he's still at the same block), he keeps trying to push
     
  6. nGord

    nGord Standby Administrator, Retired Moderator Staff Member

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    @Frenzies - yup, I know it.

    I like your theory to what is happening in Push-glide! This is the simplest explanation and it wouldn't require any "verification" routine in the app. I like simple!

    Actually, the more I think about it, I had to ask myself why I tried to over-complicate it. I think it was because I didn't see B actually trying to make that final step. He just stood there. But you're still right: He hasn't made his final step forward and thus him and the draggable are all pushed forward. I guess since they are all moving in unison, B doesn't have to be seen to lean in. Any fraction of leaning in results in that much of a push and him standing straight up again. Please don't make me explain the calculus here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  7. richardfu

    richardfu Moderator

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    Awesome discovery! It really looks like B's driving a plane.

    @nGord I tried some experiments to confirm your theory but it didn't work out. Please correct me if I missed something:
    [​IMG]
    Here, if you tap on the green grass, the corresponding block on the top should be the one next to the slider block. If you release the switch when the bot nearly climbed onto the blocks, you'll see it only stays behind and doesn't try to chase the block next to the slider.

    So I'm guessing it only works in @cpw's situation, where pushing is involved.
     
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  8. nGord

    nGord Standby Administrator, Retired Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks @richardfu ! Your shared experiment only solidifies @Frenzies theory, which again, I am happy about because it simplifies things.

    Here is a description I wrote up about it: "Push and Glide Exploit - This is an extension to the Hercules trick and applies under the special condition when the movable that B attempts to push (while in autopilot) is connected to the block on which he would stand on to attempt his push. In other words, if B tries to push the movable, he and the movable move together as a unit. In fact they’re so connected that B doesn't even seem to lean in to push. And since he also doesn't complete his autopilot routine, he and the movable keep moving (unless/until blocked)."
     
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  9. TR O

    TR O Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, " not determinable" this should be a better phrase.

    And
    Here is an example of my hover bot theory
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  10. richardfu_

    richardfu_ Retired Moderator and Featured Levels Manager

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    I found a way to make motors slower.:D Haven't found a way to make use of it though.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Frenzies

    Frenzies Administrator Staff Member

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    Interesting. By the way, do you know what makes motors turn in a specific direction? Sometimes when I restart a level of mine, the motor turns the other way...
     
  12. richardfu_

    richardfu_ Retired Moderator and Featured Levels Manager

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    In my experience they are always consistent. However motors on stationary blocks rotate in the opposite direction to motors on movable blocks.
     
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  13. explorer

    explorer Active Member

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    Could you post an example?

    I've had to use a different solution to get opposite rotations, but would live to learn of a simpler method.

    Here's some simple experiments.

    image.jpg

    The only thing I managed to do to change the normal rotation was attaching a motor to a movable clump which includes a draggable block, but that just made the motor stop. That makes sense, considering that a draggable block would mean you intended to move any such mechanism manually.
     
  14. richardfu_

    richardfu_ Retired Moderator and Featured Levels Manager

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    Try my 'slower' motor example right above. Also try placing motors on a slider or on another motor, and you'll see it rotates in the opposite direction. It's also simple to keep them stationary - just use some extra stone blocks to block the slider or motor.
     
  15. sawdust

    sawdust Retired Moderator

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    Hmmm, the only way i've found to reverse direction is to stack 3 motors. The bottom spins one counter clockwise, the middle one doesn't spin and the top one spins clockwise. The slower motor would be good for decorations such as windmills where the faster speed just looks wrong.
     
  16. meko

    meko Italian Moderator

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    I'm really pleased that the purpose of this thread has been successful!
     
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  17. explorer

    explorer Active Member

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    @meko - I mean no disrespect, and I know I'm a newbie, but may I ask a question?

    Would this topic be better placed in the level Creation Help subforum?

    I ask because that's where I went looking as a newbie for others who were working on level creation and ideas.

    Or, are there good reasons for it to be in the General subforum of which I'm not aware?

    Yes! Success!

    ----

    Here's a level I came up with which explores two odd limits on B's movement I've run into.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Frenzies

    Frenzies Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes. @richardfu actually mentioned that. I'm not exactly sure why he didn't move it yet.
     
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  19. TR O

    TR O Well-Known Member

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    Here are some mechanisms of my Claw..level. I guess also share them here?.....
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Frenzies

    Frenzies Administrator Staff Member

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    Wow! Those are great mechanisms! I love the button mechanism
     

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